A Conversation with an Atheist


Grand Canyon 23Some of the things that infuse more meaning and joy into life are the unexpected connections and conversations I have with other people. My life has been made dazzlingly rich by the sheer diversity of people I know and talk to on a regular basis. If someone was trying to figure out where I stand, what convictions I hold, or which values are dearest to me by analyzing my family and friends, the only one thing that might be deduced is my love for people of all kinds.

On Saturday night, my circle was widened by a conversation with a man who lives on my street. I had seen him around here and there, and I think I had said “hello” to him a few times, but just as I was about to get into the car and run down to the grocery store, he said, “Hey, Chris!” So, I stopped to talk to him a bit, asked him typical chit-chat questions about his family, his work, etc., etc. From there– and admittedly I’m horrible at recalling conversations line by line– somehow I got to mentioning something about how I’ve learned many different life lessons from God. After that, he said something like, “Well, as far as God and heaven go, I like to think that we’re living in heaven right now, that heaven is now.” I immediately thought to myself that if this life right now is heaven, we’ve been royally had by a cosmic sadist. Sure, life is wonderful, but far, far from perfect. It’s certainly nothing I’d call “heaven.”

So, I think I said something to him like, “Maybe God will lead us to something far better than this.” To that he replied, “Well, that’s assuming that there is a God.” That was when I knew our conversation was going to get far more complex and perhaps thornier than either of us had imagined. Here we were, a theist speaking to an atheist. From there we conversed back and forth on the question of God’s existence from the point of view of nature, the origins of the cosmos, and everyday human experience. For every idea I proposed to demonstrate the reality of God, he countered it with some kind of non-theistic scientific explanation. We were obviously getting nowhere fast with one another.

I then tried to shift our conversation to the person of Jesus and his resurrection. We talked about the historicity of Jesus’ life and resurrection with multiple and varied attestations to both things, sources like the gospel accounts, Josephus, and other ancient Roman histories. He questioned the validly of the sources, and honestly I wasn’t sure how familiar he was with them. So, I borrowed one more tried and true question which C. S. Lewis used on skeptics. Lewis said that Jesus claimed himself to be Lord and God. There’s no question about that from the gospel accounts. So, either he was a delusional lunatic, a liar, or indeed who he said he was. And if you look at all the things Jesus did and said with any kind of objectivity, you’d be hard pressed to conclude that he was crazy or a liar.

My new friend thought for a second, and then said, “Maybe Jesus told a good lie. Religion is the sum total of human creativity and imagination, designed to make human beings feel good and do the right thing, so maybe Jesus told a good lie in order to get people simply to do good. It’s like Santa Claus. Santa Claus is a good lie; it’s harmless, and yet it brings people enjoyment.”

“So,” I countered, “what you’re saying is that people like me and millions and millions of others are living in a delusive lie– albeit a good one!– that people have designed in order to help us be good people and do the right thing?”

“Basically, yes,” he replied.

“So, you’re saying, that my career, everything I believe, my livelihood, and what I’m prepared to preach to my congregation tomorrow, is a good lie on par with something like Santa Claus?”

“Yes,” he said. “But that’s not bad! If it’s what you believe…”

Hmm… after we wound down the conversation and said goodbye to one another, I began to taste a new found bitterness towards atheism. I’m not at all bitter towards atheists as people. In fact, I really like my new friend and hope to get to know him better. I’ve known and loved other atheists, too. But this conversation helped me to see that atheism exercises a philosophical bravado, if not a degree of arrogance, to assume that the commonly held spiritual conviction of the other 90% of us who believe in some form of deity is nothing but a fanciful human creation which we’ve unwittingly convinced ourselves to call “God.” It escapes all reason to argue that  intelligent, sophisticated, sane, self-aware, highly educated people would be snared into a delusion as large as God. Have we been duped by the greatest and oldest conspiracy of humanity? An atheist would have to conclude, “Yes.” In that case, my passionate convictions of Jesus Christ are no more substantive than a child’s belief in Santa Claus.

Yet there’s also another heartbreaking problem with atheism: it robs people of their full humanity. We humans, as creatures who strive towards greatness and mastery, all have a basic need to fetter that power with humility by awing something or someone greater than ourselves. In other words, human beings have the need to worship. When we hear a stirring piece of music or stare wide-eyed at a classic painting, it’s not long before we start to revere the artist as the creator. Likewise, when we look up into the sky to see the immeasurable vastness and power of the cosmos, gaze out at the grand canyon, marvel at the intricate balance of our environment, caress a newborn baby, dive through a coral reef, or take in the symphony of birds and insects in a forest– all these things far, far greater in intricacy, beauty, and force than a piece of music or a painting– how can we fail, without losing an essential part ourselves, to acknowledge and worship their Creator? If there is no no one to thank, praise, and worship, then we have fallen into a sub-human cesspool of narcissism, nihilism, and cynicism. Those of us who believe in a deity can fall into these same forms of dehumanization when we fail to fall humbly on our faces in worship. From time to time I’ve seen dehumanization in myself from my lack of worship.

Thinking again of my new friend, I realize that clever arguments won’t curb his atheism. Any condemnation or condescension he senses from me will only repel him. I believe he will come around by the influence of two things: the ongoing presence of the Holy Spirit in his life and by my loving him, accepting him, and serving him as an authentic witness and image of Jesus himself. In the end, love, which comes from God, and is indeed God, will be the victor over any shred of unbelief.

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23 Comments

Filed under Christian thought, Uncategorized

23 responses to “A Conversation with an Atheist

  1. Wonderful post. How often do we, as Christians, fail to show the true nature of Christ by simply trying to “win” an arguement? I love that you took the time to listen to your neighbors comments and didn’t simply try to blow him out of the water with your’s. I do hope and pray that the love of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit will bring this one into the kingdom. There is a saying I have heard that says:” I never saw so clearly as when I was decieved”. So many professed atheists are just that, decieved by the arrogance of mankind that thinks we are actually in charge here.
    God bless and I pray for success in your ministry, Glenn

    • pastorchrisowens

      Thank you, Glen… I wonder how my friend would react to knowing that there are folks from Oregon praying for him! Looks like you’ve got a great writing and publishing ministry. God bless you and your work!

      • Edmund Metheny

        Popping in late, but you sent me here Chris, so I figure it’s OK.

        If your friend is a reasonable human being, as most atheists are, he will be touched by the fact that other people care for his welfare and are, within the framework of their belief, concerned enough to worry about him.

        I never object when people pray for me.

  2. Willidine Mellas

    Pator Chris WOW!!! It is hard for me to find the right words to say. First this is an amazing converstion you had. I know a few athiest myself. And they are some of the most loving people you’d ever meet. Which much like you leads me to believe that some how the holy spirt has touched them. I to have lost faith many times due to a lack of understanding God’s true teachings of life. I guess I will never understand why some things happen the way they do. But I do know I love our Lord and Savior and I will always do my best to be a good person. You are a wonderful pastor , friend and family man. I know that for this reason you will always have many followers in your preachings. Thanks for sharing this wonderful story with all of us. God Bless.

    • pastorchrisowens

      Thank you, Willie! Yes, several of the atheists I know are loving, giving people. They aren’t bad people. I agree with you, too, that their goodness is indeed the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. I equate atheism with people who carry coal. There are diamonds to be had, but they’re convinced that their coal is better than those diamonds, and so they stick to the coal, believing that coal is all there is.

      Then again, that also describes us in many ways, too. We all suffer from a degree of disbelief and so settle with a certain degree of coal instead of trading it all in for diamonds. God help us all!!

  3. scaryreasoner

    “So, I borrowed one more tried and true question which C. S. Lewis used on skeptics. ”

    Heh. “tried and true.” It’s obvious you have actually tried this out yourself. It was laughable with Lewis wrote it, and it’s still laughable. There are ZERO good arguments for theism. Every argument for theism doesn’t just fail to be good, they all fail to be non-idiotic. The guy you were conversing with was just a lot more polite than I am.

    • pastorchrisowens

      Scaryreasoner, I appreciate your contribution to the conversation, albeit short. You might be interested to know that I’ve had bouts with atheism and I’ve spent most of my life as a theistic agnostic before becoming a Christian. So, I wonder how thoughtful and complete your reasoning is if you can think of no good arguments for theism. I can certainly think of good arguments for atheism, even though I’m convinced it ultimately falls short of reasoning from an empirical and even historic point of view.

      C. S. Lewis also lived most of his life as an atheist before becoming a believer. If you read his writings, you see that he possessed a mental prowess that few, including me, could compete with. If you read the gospel accounts, you’ll see that indeed Jesus called himself God, which leaves three possibilities: he was either knowingly lying about himself, was delusional, or who he was who said he was. Every person I’ve engaged on this has not been able to produce another category. Can you? I’d be curious to see what you come up with.

      • Edmund Metheny

        Chris,

        You (and Lewis) do miss a third very real possibility – the possibility that the statement was added by subsequent authors after the fact and is not, in fact, an authentic quote.

        Obviously the debate in such cases as to which sayings are authentic and which are not is beyond the scope of this blog – biblical scholars have been debating the authorship of various passages for a long time now. However, it is not necessarily an either/or situation as you and Lewis maintain.

  4. Shamelessly Atheist

    If there is no no one to thank, praise, and worship, then we have fallen into a sub-human cesspool of narcissism, nihilism, and cynicism.

    Excuse me, but without any knowledge (or any demonstrated ability that you really know atheists) you label me as a narcissist, a cynic and a nihilist? Do you have any idea how insulting that is, particularly since it isn’t even close to the truth? Have you even heard of secular humanism?

    This is the bigotry and prejudice that sadly we have come to expect from Christians.

    • pastorchrisowens

      You know, Shamelessly Atheist, I often find a strain of anger and defensiveness in atheists, which points to the cynicism and narcissism of atheism I mentioned. It obviously got to you… While I’m deeply sorry to have offended you (that wasn’t my intention), I find it interesting that you missed a major point I made: that I’m not attacking atheists, but atheism. I’m trying to challenge your beliefs and even point out what I perceive their dangers to be, but I’m not attacking you as a person. And there’s a major difference. I completely sympathize with your anger towards what you call “the bigotry and prejudice… from Christians”, but that’s not what my post was all about.

      It’s an alarming postmodern phenomenon that judging a person’s ideas is also to judge the whole person, which makes it almost impossible to critique anything about a person. You in turn, attacked my ideas and then went further to attack me as a bigot and prejudiced! I’m not at all offended, I’m just saddened that we can’t have a passionate exchange of ideas without it becoming personal.

      • Edmund Metheny

        Chris,

        If you label someone subhuman nihilist narcissist cynic, most people will in fact feel somewhat hurt/insulted/angered by such a statement. It has nothing to do with any dark streak of hopelessness or despair – it’s just a rude, unkind thing to say about someone’s beliefs.

        Now, if that’s what you really believe then it is only fair that you be able to express it. But don’t fall into circular logic here. Just because you have negative feelings about another ethical and moral system of your own, and you express it in the terms mentioned, and people get offended by it, DOESN’T validate your opinion of their ethical beliefs. They aren’t getting angry or hurt because they have a bankrupt system of beliefs, they are getting angry and hurt because you are calling them sub-human, which is pretty low in my opinion.

  5. But this conversation helped me to see that atheism exercises a philosophical bravado, if not a degree of arrogance, to assume that the commonly held spiritual conviction of the other 90% of us who believe in some form of deity is nothing but a fanciful human creation which we’ve unwittingly convinced ourselves to call “God.”

    If a billion people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.

    It escapes all reason to argue that intelligent, sophisticated, sane, self-aware, highly educated people would be snared into a delusion as large as God.

    If a billion intelligent people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.

    Intelligent people believe in foolish things all the time. For example, Isaac Newton was into alchemy. It doesn’t make alchemy any less foolish.

    Besides, isn’t there a quote in the bible about how all intelligent people are fools? I get that one thrown at me by Christians a lot. ^_^

    Have we been duped by the greatest and oldest conspiracy of humanity? An atheist would have to conclude, “Yes.”

    Yes.

    In that case, my passionate convictions of Jesus Christ are no more substantive than a child’s belief in Santa Claus.

    Not quite. A child’s belief in Santa Claus is slightly more substantive than an adult’s belief in God, because the adults usually plant evidence to convince them; the cookies and milk were drunk, there’s half-eaten carrots in the yard outside, and presents!

    There is no such evidence for God – there is only wishful thinking, as you demonstrate in the following paragraph.

    • Ubiquitous Che, I see you’ve got a love for rhetoric, so let me ask you: what logic (logos) do you use to assume that the experience of billions of people with the divine is foolish? And while Isaac Newton believed in alchemy, he proposed laws of physics which we still use today. Let’s say a minority of people labeled his third law of motion “foolish”, even though the majority of the scientific community finds this true, does that make it so?

      My point is that the commonly shared experience of humanity throughout the ages is the acknowledgment of some kind of supernatural reality. And while there may be no scientific proofs of God, science and even reason do not contain all the things we humans call reality, things like love, joy, and peace. No one can “prove” these things anymore than one can “prove” God, yet it would reduce our humanity to deny their existence as a part of what gives us existential meaning and purpose.

      • Ha! I’m pleased you’re familiar with the terminology of rhetoric. That should make this easier.

        … what logic (logos) do you use to assume that the experience of billions of people with the divine is foolish?

        To cut Mythos into the real and the fictional requires the blade of Logos. Without a handle, we must grasp Logos by the edge – it will cut the hand that tries to hold it. So we sheathe the haft of Logos in Karios, which is hard enough to contain that edge. So, with a firm grasp of Kairos, we can then wield the blade of Logos to cleave Mythos into fact and fiction.

        Let’s say a minority of people labeled his third law of motion “foolish”, even though the majority of the scientific community finds this true, does that make it so?

        If they’ve grasped Logos by the blade, it will cut them before it cuts Newton.

        My point is that the commonly shared experience of humanity throughout the ages is the acknowledgment of some kind of supernatural reality.

        We have direct evidence that such experiences can be caused by enveloping the brain in a powerful electromagnetic field, or by experienceing a sudden increase in apparent gravity, or through drug use.

        We have no direct evidence that these experiences can be caused by supernatural entities. Neither do we have direct evidence that such supernatural entities exist.

        Commonly shared experiences throughout humanity are evidence only that humanity shares a common trait or traits that cause them to have such experiences. That common trait may be a supernatural reality. It may not.

        Grasping Kairos, Logos says: “Not!”

        http://www.atheistempire.com/reference/brain/main.html

        And while there may be no scientific proofs of God, science and even reason do not contain all the things we humans call reality, things like love, joy, and peace.

        Joy can be caused by inserting an electrode into the brain and electrically stimulating it.

        http://www.popsci.com/node/4089

        No one can “prove” these things anymore than one can “prove” God…

        Peaceful states of mind are correlated with reduced brain activity.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Brain

        yet it would reduce our humanity to deny their existence as a part of what gives us existential meaning and purpose.

        There is more existential meaning and purpose to be found in the realization that the buck stops with us – it straightens the spine.

        The alternative of delegating that responsibility to an invisible sky-wizard, however, gives more than nothing, but much less than embracing our personal responsibility to think for ourselves.

        Sapere Aude! Omnia quaere!

      • Well Ubiquitous Che, I can see that we could go back and forth for an eternity, neither of us yielding in our convictions. But there’s one thing I’d like for you to understand about those of us like me who argue for the existence of God (which is not something I’m particularly fond of doing because to to do because it implies that the only purpose God has is to exist). We are not afraid of the truth– to learn all things and to question everything. We come from people like Augustine, Origen, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, John Wesley, Karl Barth, yes, Isaac Newton, and so many others who never shied away from looking at the whole truth. Critical questioning, learning, and worshiping God fit very well together, at least for most of us.

        I think the difference between you and me, and you might agree with this, is that we both look at the world through different sets of eyeglasses. We must choose to put on those eyeglasses to see the world in all of its intricacies the way we do. Having said that, the choice to be an atheist requires as much “faith” as theism, in the light of thousands of years of human belief in deity and the natural inclination within human beings to believe in deity, (the later point being one you would naturally deny!)

        So, I leave you with a challenge in your pursuit of the truth: as you question belief, question non-belief and seek to learn all things, including the things of faith…

  6. Hey Chris,

    Sorry I missed this when it first came out–I’ve been working crazy hours in and out of work, and haven’t been up to date.

    This actually brings up a subject I’ve been thinking about for a while, largely in response to something you said in Facebook some time back, where you pointed to agnostics and atheists as being symptomatic of a culture in trouble. As a taoist, myself, and an agnostic, I had to grimace a bit at the parallel, which follows the standard protocol of connecting atheism and agnosticism when the two really only appear near each other in a dictionary, and have been writing a long piece that started as a FB reply and will eventually become a post in my Livejournal. It’s still a work in progress, so I’ll have to send it your way when I finish.

    That said, it’s funny to see theists and atheists go at it, because, from my perspective, there’s really not much of a difference between the two spiritual (or aspiritual) approaches. Each are based in faith, which is to say that each makes leaps based on beliefs and strong emotional feelings when the hard facts fail to complete the case. Atheists rely on an appeal to the faith that not being able to see something means it isn’t there, while theists go to faith to bridge the gaps in the historicity of their various religions, and there are some really huge gaps, even to the most reasoned and well-researched believers. When I’m discussing these things with either, I often have to point out that necessary faith, which theists tend to accept (with the exception of the most rigidly fundamentalist practitioners) and atheists tend to decry, often loudly.

    I was a theist in my youth, not out of innocence or ignorance, but because it was just what I believed, largely because I was taught it from birth. In later years, I was an atheist, partly out of the reactionary faith that, because God failed to actually do anything for the world (my view at the time), he/she/it/they must not exist, and I know the angry, reactionary feeling of that well, being borne, as it is, out of a desire to be free from religion in a country unfairly led by fundamentalist believers. In the end, though, I found both wanting, and found arrogance enough in either camp, in the strident belief that we can know things that are beyond our understanding well enough to live and die, hurt and kill, and judge and sentence on those articles of faith.

    I think it’s good for theists to have to have these sorts of confrontations, challenging their systems of belief from the opposite angle, if for no better reason than to make you think, and to experience that feeling of having someone else tell you that they know who you are, and why you do what you do. I’ve been told for my whole adult life that the way I live is wrong, almost solely by theists, even though I know what they say is wrong, and that very perspective, and that sense of helpless frustration, is a root for developing patience, compassion, and understanding.

    It’s a little jarring to read “…how can we fail, without losing an essential part ourselves, to acknowledge and worship their Creator? If there is no no one to thank, praise, and worship, then we have fallen into a sub-human cesspool of narcissism, nihilism, and cynicism,” for that reason, because I can tell you that I’m a person who doesn’t believe (or disbelieve, which is a key point in this) in a personalized, supernatural creator, and yet I live a life bursting with joy, awe, wonder, and compassion, because those things are not dependent on a creator with an identity.

    For me, the creator of those things is the Tao, which in my view is a manifestation of the mechanism of physical sciences at work, but it doesn’t make the world any less amazing or wonderful, and I don’t allow the intrusive alteration of language that’s often employed by theists to diminish my awe–“so you just think the universe is a big machine?” That’s the inherent beauty of taoism and my own approach to taoism, in the absence of the ugly binaries that the world is either a big heartless machine or the joyous creation of a loving mind. I just take it in, allow for the possibility that there might or might not be a mind behind it all, and experience the wonder of each moment without obsessing over the why.

    There’s a lot of people who believe that, without God, you just live as a narcissist, out for yourself, without rules or compassion or any reason to practice kindness if there’s not some kind of reward or punishment out there, but that just seems so stilted to me, having to live in fear of that system of heaven or hell. I do good because it is good, and I regret when I fail to do so because I feel it when I do, in that core of who I am.

    Some day, I’d like to talk to you about the change in me that came when I found that I’d stopped believing in the God I was reared to believe in, and how that change was positive, and made me a kinder, more compassionate, and more generous person than I was when I believed that there was someone out there pulling the strings. Likewise, freeing myself of the angry faith in an anti-God, so to speak, or rather in the reactionary delight of believing in the absence of God, made me surrender myself to the greater possibility of uncertainty. It’s not about wishy-washiness or ignorance–it’s about an understanding that I am not so big or so smart that I can comprehend things that lie outside of human understanding. I started writing about this when I first read your quip about atheists and agnostics, and it was a great catalyst for months and months of meditative thought, coming in the free moments between work and my other obligations. I’m grateful to you for that, by the way. Being challenged is how we learn, grow, and explore, even when we do come back to our own starting point.

    Gotta run, I think it’s time for a nighttime scooter run, but great posting, Chris. By the way, speaking of giant mechanical things, I just got a new job, starting in a month, which will include winding and maintaining the clocks in the Bromo Seltzer Tower in Baltimore. It’s a clockwork world, indeed! ;)

    Joe Wall!

    • Hey, Joe, thank you so much for your thoughtful, honest, and very open reply and for being able to trust me with all of this, too. I definitely look forward to more conversation with you on all of this tangled mess of faith!

      I definitely got strong, pretty negative responses from that one quote that also jarred you. As I said to others, my intent was not to castigate people (although from my role as both a pastor and a Christian, whenever I speak strongly about something, it’s often unfairly assumed that I’m just self-righteously railing against people. Not true!) Really, I see narcissism, nihilism, and cynicism all over the culture and, yes, in the Church, too. At the source of it, I find no God (or the old religious word, “godlessness”). Therefore, I gave out the warning, from my everyday experience, that atheism, or the acknowledgment of God, leads to those things.

      As a person of faith, there are a few things with which I don’t obsess myself. First, I don’t obsess about how or why things like Creation came to be. For me, acknowledging God as the Creator is an act of thanks and praise, not a philosophical or theological argument. Nor do I do good out of a fearful compulsion to obey God in order to get into heaven and avoid hell. In my convictions, Jesus has already saved me (and you, by the way!) for eternal life. So the good I do, much like looking at the Creation, is in thanks and praise to God and not my attempt satiate God, myself, or others.

      But one thing you and I have in common is a certain degree of agnosticism in that we do not pretend to know it all. Yes, church people and pastors can often come across as know-it-alls because we share in the human problem of arrogance and narcissism. But at my best, I realize that the more I learn about God, the more I don’t know, and it keeps me humble. Some of the most godly, Christ-centered people I know are the most humble creatures you’ll ever meet because they realize the tremendous scope of who God is and what God has done. They realize how much there is that we cannot grasp. I’d love to arrive that that kind of humility one day…

      I look forward to talking to you more, Joe!

      Chris

  7. The gospels were written 30-70 years after the time that Jesus supposedly lived. Why are there no writings by people who lived during his time?

    • Steven, that’s a good question. The gospels, however, were put together by people and communities who were the closest to him or two his followers. So as far as history is concerned, they are the most reliable documents we have to knowing and understanding the life and ministry of Jesus.

      However, having just said that, the gospels were not written as biographies of Jesus. They were written so that a larger following of Jesus could hear his teachings, actions, and accomplishments and increase their faith in him as Lord. Incredibly, that still happens today for current followers of Jesus like myself.

  8. Edmund Metheny

    “Thinking again of my new friend, I realize that clever arguments won’t curb his atheism. Any condemnation or condescension he senses from me will only repel him.”

    Must your clever arguments include condemnation and condescension? That doesn’t seem to me to be a good way of convincing anyone of anything.

    My suggestion is to be frank and honest with him. Consider what he has to say. If you want him to take your arguments seriously, then you need to be prepared to be just as open to listening to his ideas. Otherwise you are just bludgeoning him with your beliefs.

    • Hello Edmund-

      I’ll respond a bit later on the Lewis quote, but to address the harsh part of my blog… Admittedly, it was a bit harsh but honestly how I felt at the time and from time to time still feel about the nature of atheism. I want to be clear that my description (which you mention in another comment) was directed at the concept of atheism, not atheists themselves. I do stand by my conviction that we humans were made to awe and worship Someone greater than ourselves and when we fail to do that, it robs us of our full humanity and turns us inward. My description of atheism describes it at its worst and while hyperbolic in most cases, it has described the state of some atheists I’ve known as well as the state of some so-called believers who have religious knowledge and beliefs but in reality don’t really trust or worship God.

      In no way do I ever intend to condemn or to become condescending towards anyone. I do speak out against ideas or concepts which I believe to be false or misleading, but I really try to avoid getting personal by maligning anyone’s character. So, if that’s the way you interpreted my remarks– and it appears that way!– please accept my apology, Edmund.

      Chris

  9. Pingback: How Atheists Have Helped Me Become a More Authentic Christian | Pastor Chris Owens – - Musings, Rants, and Reflections

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